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Post by wurks on Mar 5, 2010 21:43:11 GMT -5
Well then Medussa, Now you have finally found the the right one... the "one true church".. The Church of Bill You are a prime candidate for Big Love. ha! I"m just kidding.
I am not part of any organized religion either; not any more. I was raised smack dab in the middle of the FLDS though. Only it was before it was the FLDS. What most people do not know is that it was only "organized" recently, by r jeffs, (warren's dad) and the two of them have destroyed in about 15 years what it took a lot of good people 200 years to create.
Actually, I too have had many epiphanies, it would be ungrateful of me not to admit that. I've been compelled into my own circumstance also. I always say that if you had not been where you have been you could not be where you are. lol
But I am still waiting for "that one" epiphany though.. kwim?
It sounds like maybe you could write that book after all. lol I know that I could, and my story would be a very compelling read, but there are a lot of reasons why I could never do it. It's the same reasons why I don't ever say very much about my own story.
Suffice it to say that I do know a little bit about catharsis. As a result of that I have made a study of understanding relationships inside and out.
Now, not to boast, but I practically have x-ray vision into most of the ones I see. This orgasmic brain hammering concept was one of the missing pieces. Like most people I always thought the more the better. Now I can see exactly what happens when people don't understand how addictive and destructive it can be both physically and spiritually. Poor pity the polygamists huh? Viagra would be the least of their problems. lol
Otherwise good and normal (and moral) people are being destroyed by their ignorance of it. (the debilitating addiction, I mean) They know that something is drastically wrong, but they don't know what, or how to fix it.
Another thing that most people are missing now, is that the Divorce Industry is big business. It's like another whole subculture that people get sucked into like a vortex and can never escape. The "Law", CPS, and the Judicial system (and a psudo-judical system inside of it) are being used to do some very seriously damaging social engineering. It is no longer even about justice. The FLDS are so wrapped into it's tentacles now that they well never see daylight again.
I'm sorry about your hard luck, but in a way I was relieved that you were not just another one of those "desperate housewives".
"As knowledge can come from a seed of belief One true joy can vanquish a lifetime of grief."
~by yours truly, wurks
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Post by aliensummer on Mar 5, 2010 21:56:40 GMT -5
Being an (unwilling) single mom has been an awkward process of being dragged kicking and screaming and loudly complaining through the 5 years since he died. I am not a very good single mom. My work, which I hate HAVING to do full-time, demands a lot of my finite psychic energy. My lacks and faults were counter-balanced nicely by my husband and I find myself dealing with things about myself that I was able to ignor for decades. A PIA, I can tell you. I hate to cook and clean now, and don't do it nearly enough. My home does not have a lovely, settled feel to it--and I really wish someone would come in and create if for us, lol. I am inadequate for our needs, but I'm all we've got now. It sucks. If you're anything like my mom, you're better at it than you're giving yourself credit. My mom is also a widow. Lost my dad in a matter of a weekend when I was eight and my sister was five. She always second guesses herself, and while she might drive me crazy sometimes, she's still the strongest female I've ever known and I hope that I can be as good a mom as her one day. I wouldn't doubt it if your children feel the same way. The fact that you haven't given up says it all to me.
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dsc6
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Post by dsc6 on Mar 6, 2010 2:17:40 GMT -5
Ha!--I am a desparate housewife!!--well, I guess not the wife part anymore, but in this house and desparate about it, lol. My daughter noticed that the house was not very clean. It was picked up and tidy, but that's all I managed.
I don't watch the show, so don't know all the nuances concerning the reference, but I can put 2+2 together, so you don't need to go into it, since some people could be offended by a description. I gather it's not altogether complimentary.
BTW, the reference to the Society of Friends was mine; I know the past tense is inappropriate, but the incident about which I read when I had that particular epiphany was John Woolman and the Friends' response to slavery--so I think of that in the past tense. I think that, of all and any organized religions to which I have been drawn or have taken from for my own particular '-ology', the Society of Friends is the most pure. I did not remain a Quaker for all my life because there is a part of me that needed symbolism and ritual. But my own personal philosophy is closest to a Quaker-ism that is grounded in the inclusive aspects of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I pick and choose what I take from these various religions or whatever you want to call them. It drove my husband nuts. His only experience with religion, which he rejected for science and humanism, was Catholicism of the Italian variety, as he was born in Italy. The picking and choosing based on internal urges or revelation or internal spiritual direction, was totally foreign to him. But seeking and listening to the Inner Light is the 'fundamental' truth of Quakerism. It is what I started to do when I was too young to have any 'head' knowledge of anything spiritual or religious. I think it is a very feminine and 'heart-centered' way. I am drawn to the Book of John. I see fundamentalist Christian churches, like the Church of Christ, as being very masculine, with rejection of current personal revelation or direction, and being all about external control and rules and external teachings and learning, and male-led heirarchies. A very 'head-centered' way and very into the writings of Paul. I believe the Spirit of God is very present and fluid and seeks us out relentlessly via just about any path a human will choose; my relatives in the church of Christ denomination envision the Spirit of God as being fixed in the words of the Bible. A very 'head' way of doing religion, seems to me.....
Each to his own.
W., was the work 'succor' a slip or an intentional double entendre? Be honest, now. I'm dying to know. Either way--delightful.
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Post by marionj2 on Mar 6, 2010 11:32:17 GMT -5
Oops - sorry, dsc6. I was surprised to think wurks would have looked into the Society of Friends, I admit! That's the trouble with quoting another post in italics - hard to keep track of who said what.
While I eventually came to terms with the fact that I was really an atheist, the idea of "that of God in every man" (a Quaker term) rang true with me for a long time. Funny - there's a certain comparison to the FLDS idea that a righteous man will eventually become a god! There's a comparison, too, in the idea of dressing "plain" and keeping your life simple.
Of course, Quakers don't want to make any one person stand out over others, which couldn't be further from a patriarchal culture!
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Post by wurks on Mar 6, 2010 12:46:04 GMT -5
Ha!--I am a desparate housewife!!--well, I guess not the wife part anymore, but in this house and desparate about it, lol. My daughter noticed that the house was not very clean. It was picked up and tidy, but that's all I managed. W., was the work 'succor' a slip or an intentional double entendre? Be honest, now. I'm dying to know. Either way--delightful. You were right, it was a Freudian slip. Probably more truth than poetry though. Actually - I have the poetry too. lol I haven't watched Desperate Housewives either. Figure of speech. I think you might enjoy this Barry Long interview. Not that I agree 100% with everything, but he makes some excellent points about the practicality of our God realization vision quest. Very attractive idea, imho... and aligns quite well with a lot of the other Tantric works I have seen. www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j13/barrylong.aspI had just read this again this morning before I saw your post, so the juxtaposition was interesting. The problem is that it may exacerbate your longing for your other half. lol Marion: I haven't actually studied the Society of Friends, per se, So you can go back to being justifiably unimpressed. I was more just relating to what Medusa said. I do have a lot of faith in the innate goodness of humankind. i.e, "Man's Search for Meaning" Although it seems to be slipping terribly of late. One of the interesting phenomenon about being ex-FLDS that I have noticed is that all other religions seem to be like wading in the kiddy pool after you have been swimming in the deep end. Very often people with that intense experience want to just renounce religion altogether. But to me that seems like learning the wrong lesson. I guess that is why I often sound so condescending. "People who think they know everything really make it hard on the few of us who really do".. kwim? yours very truly, wurks
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Post by wurks on Mar 6, 2010 12:55:32 GMT -5
Maybe a better way to say what I mean is in this quote:
"Heretic rebel!" A thing to flout, He drew a circle that shut me out. But I, I with the wit and the will to win, I drew a circle that took him in.
But a lot easier said than done.
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Post by wurks on Mar 6, 2010 13:37:19 GMT -5
Marion;
The main thing I remember about the Quakers was from an elementary school history lesson.
The usher in the Quakers Meeting would carry a long stick with a knob on one end to tonk the men who dozed off to sleep and a feather on the other to tickle the women under the nose.
Now that is the kind of equality I could understand. lol
Nothing puts me to sleep faster than religious exegesis. Half hour of droning on, (might as well be in Latin) or reading three pages of it without any neurological blips.
A Papal Bull always seemed like a really good name for it to me. lol
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dsc6
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Post by dsc6 on Mar 6, 2010 16:08:03 GMT -5
Quaker meetings are mostly just silently communing, in one way or another, with the Inner Light. And anyone with a call to speak may do so. I like the concept of humans being silent so that they can actually hear the still, small voice within. Kind of quieting the cacophany of daily life in this world to focus somewhere else. I know there were branches of the SoF that were more Protestant in their services, with preaching and whatnot.
Of course, the Spirit of God is not fettered and gets it across one way or another, and sometimes you don't even have to be listening, lol. Kind of like the 'tonk on the head'--or even something more akin to a skull fracture, lol.
What is it about FLDS that allows you to compare other religious experiences to 'wading in the kiddie pool'? Is it the aspect of being rejected by the mainstream culture? Is it the aspect of living outside of the law? Is it adopting a lifestyle so outside of that of the mainstream culture? Is it the Mormon gospel itself? Or is it all of the above with the strong conviction of being a true believer and 'living life on the edge'? Carmelite nuns might share that with you, excepting the legal thing, of course. The Desert Fathers, ascetic monks, suicide bombers, mountain-top yogis, tripping Native Americans, to name a few more. Of course, the things I've listed may be totally off the mark. I await being enlightened about this. Not kidding. Hey, I've read the BoM AND Under The Banner of Heaven, so I know alot about it! ;)lol--just kidding. Really.
Others' religious experiences might not be as shallow as you think....though I do not begrudge any ones' forays into the deep end. The Spirit of Light, blazing with a soul-searing intensity, wades in the kiddie pool, too. No fetters. The kiddie pool is not of less inherent value than the deep end, either, because the value is in the Other, not where we are standing.....do you understand that?
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dsc6
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Post by dsc6 on Mar 6, 2010 18:06:05 GMT -5
Thank God there are other paths.....Tantra is not my thing, of necessity..... And it always bugs me when men, in this case the Barry dude, define what woman is.....although I do see the higher thing he is talking about. I do firmly believe, however, that there is not one path. And where are the female Tantric Masters? Or are there none, because Woman, the Goddess, is receptive, silent, and just is love...? And everyone outside of sexual relationships....what about their Enlightenment?? If God, him- or herself, defines Woman to me--that and only that will I believe. Until then, I'm going to go with my intuition. (I almost said 'gut'--but that seemed inapprorpiate, somehow ) And, since I think that a little bit of an occassional buzz never hurt anyone, I believe there is a place in sex for orgasmic pleasure. I do, however, appreciate the, new to me, concept of something beyond that. And I definitely agree that marriages would be very, very well served by that 'higher' way. I am referring to the first link you posted. I would be sad, however, if it became a big burden and punishing expectation..... I am somewhat sceptical of the supposed horrible effects of the orgasmic 'rush'---it sounds slightly overwrought to me. Of course, with multiple wives and a lot of sex, that just might be the case. I'm done talking about sex. It is all moot to me, and I can't work up too much enthusiasm for the topic. I'm not the one to delve into these topics.. and forgive the couple of unintentional double entendre in this last sentence.... I (really) have a headache... <off to something I can handle, like housekeeping....you know it has to be pretty bad when housecleaning becomes a welcome alternative....>
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Post by wurks on Mar 6, 2010 21:06:48 GMT -5
I'm tempted to try to explain my beliefs, but I know that it's really just an exercise in futility. You would just see it as an attempt to "convert" you and it would just give all the naysayers more ammunition to be controversial or worse, blasphemous. ( I can just see Marion's eyes rolling, again...lol )
Central to my belief however, is that God is in fact an actual being. Not just an ethereal entity or a mental concept. So I have to be somewhat patronizing to endure a lot of the Christian exegesis, greek, or vedic myth (for lack of a better term) , and tantric philosophy about "realization" etc. But I respect it. Perfection is a noble goal by anyone's standard.
I do understand what you are saying about the shallow end... maybe that is underrated. "Be still and know" verses splashing violently just to survive. Nor do I lack respect for what the profound depths of someone else enlightenment might be. Truth is truth, no matter where you find it.
(just don't try to tell anyone that God speaks to you)
So I get it. It is not my job to try to enlighten you. There is a lot to be said about esoteric knowledge. It's not that I fear that I would have my heart ripped out and my ashes scattered to the four winds for telling you what I know.. you know? but on the other hand, what good would it really do? Some of it is just not mine to give. I hope that makes a little bit of sense.
What I don't get is why so many women fight this concept. The "I" really does have multiple personality disorder. Surrender is part of what makes women whole. It's like they are so busy with this godforsaken equality bs that they ignore their own real power.
What made this Barry Long interview so much more interesting to me was that it was a re-read after I'd covered so much other stuff... and it got even more profound, rather than less... so I guess it has something to do with where you are on the path.
With this I tend to agree with you, with some limited reservation. (granting that "little bit of occazional buzz" was fairly well undefined ..lol )
It's not working if it is a burden. But that is the point. I have had enough personal experience to know there is a lot of truth to the concept that Reuniting.info is promoting. There are a lot of testimonials to verify that once someone has been there and done that they have no desire to go back to the "sheer lunacy" of the old way.
But the most striking point to me was that we do NEED to understand that it comes with a price and the mental physiological recovery time is considerably longer than it takes to get turned on again. There is a crying need for people to understand this. It's a lot more complex.
Like Marnia says, "it is the missing piece in peace" It is about the power in tumescence, the strength of humility, and the potential of controlled passion.
Yes dear, we should probably just cuddle for a while now. Tomorrow is another episode ... i mean day.
Butt it is smart women like you who do make it hard on men like me. Actually, I love double entandres. They can be very poetic sometimes so I have to be really careful not to abuse them too often, or inadvertently.
I'll see what I can do to just stay out of your way for a while now so you can get your work done.
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Post by marionj2 on Mar 6, 2010 22:46:14 GMT -5
Marion; Nothing puts me to sleep faster than religious exegesis. Half hour of droning on, (might as well be in Latin) or reading three pages of it without any neurological blips. Yep, you've never been to a Quaker Meeting for Worship. You sit in silence unless someone feels the need to speak. For restless children it's a bit of an endurance test, especially since the seats tend to be wooden benches.
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dsc6
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Post by dsc6 on Mar 7, 2010 2:40:49 GMT -5
W,
You should read C.S. Lewis's book Till We Have Faces.
Thank you for letting me know what makes women whole... <shakes head while rolling eyes>
I never thought of 'be still and know that I am God' as shallow end....and remember those who have had/described the dark night of the soul--by all appearances and even to themselves--total aridity, but great work going on outside the knowing of the person....
Your deep end might be anothers' shallow end, and vice versa. I'll try not to judge your depth if you try not to judge mine.
And, lastly, regarding 'an occassional bit of a buzz': in my field, when a person tells us they drink or do drugs 'a little', we automatically quadruple the amount they say they use and the frequency with which they say they do it, lol. Being surprised by acute withdrawal is a bad scene when people are really, really sick to start with. Recently had a pt innocently say he justs drinks a little wine, and didn't remember any of the previous night's, shall we say, disruptive behavior. I told him that, regardless of how much it is, it's apparently too much.
The God I believe in is real, too.
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dsc6
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Post by dsc6 on Mar 7, 2010 2:57:34 GMT -5
Each to his own. There are things that mean alot to me which make others shake their heads and people find meaning in that which is meaningless to me. I've had people say to me, "How can you believe that??!!" And I've thought the same about other paths. Especially those that proclaim to be the only way. Maybe it's the only way for them, and thank God they aren't in charge of my spiritual destiny (even if they think they are ) Peace to all.
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Post by wurks on Mar 7, 2010 12:33:55 GMT -5
... part of. Don't let your inner Medusa miss the nuance of that. So maybe I don't have the complete formula figured out yet. I think maybe there is "a little miracle happens here" somewhere in the middle of it. I'll have to admit, however, that I haven't seen very many whole ones, so maybe it's a frame of reference thing with the baseline not clearly established... yet.
I mean, you say that you aren't a feminist, but you seem to always have your dude dukes up.
There are other things you can be still and know.
Ok so maybe it's more like a warm jacuzzi to you. lol But when you see people thrashing violently to survive in the shallow end, you have to wonder why they don't just relax and put their feet down. Wondering isn't really the same as being judgmental.
... but it's nice to have something you can blame it on sometimes.
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dsc6
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Post by dsc6 on Mar 7, 2010 13:30:09 GMT -5
Regarding 'dude dukes' or assertive rebuttal, well, that's just a facade for the sake of interesting conversation. I'm really a softie, a push-over (well, sometimes). It's all in how one is treated by a man...if he is trustworthy, there is no need for 'dukes' of any kind, except in play or banter. I know how and when to lay my power down. A person who knows what the other wants & needs doesn't have to talk about that knowing in real life. Actions are worth a million words. But a man, not referring to anyone in particular, really, who does not acknowledge me as what I am, a man who truely is convinced that he is better than me in a hierarchical kind of way, or who thinks he is higher on the ladder of worthiness, just because he is a man, will not convince me that it is safe to lay down my power. You're not the only one with Xray vision of one type or another.... I have nothing invested in the word 'equal'. I think what most women want to be acknowedged as is 'as worthy as', period, end of debate, no conditions. Mutual adoration, get it?? High Priest/High Priestess, God/Goddess. Now, for the more mundane aspects of this: I mean, when in a two-working-parents family, when one has to wage an ongoing 'discussion' about the unfairness of one coming home to sit down and relax till dinner, and the other racing around doing a second full-time-at-home job--we're not talking about the finer points of man-woman relating. Men pretty much have themselves to blame for the whole 'equality' thing. This is just one of a multitude of examples any woman reading this could give. And, take it from me, there is not fair play in most marriage relationships. When a woman is treated well, with respect, and fairly, there is no need to fight for those things..... Why is intelligent rebuttal 'dude dukes', anyway? I agree, though, it is fairly exhausting. Hey, but I'll be more than willing to do the dishes while you cut down that tree....if you get my drift...let's share the work and divvy it up in any way that makes sense to us both. Or do it all together, I don't care. The yin/yang thing is better when it's a dance, with all kinds of graceful fluidity. These posts of mine take a fair amount of time and thought. I'm not spitting this stuff out rapid-fire, although the temple prostitute comment did engender some 'spitting'. That was a poor choice on your part.
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