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Post by rissmeek on Feb 1, 2011 2:17:00 GMT -5
I know I'm going to go against the tide on this one, but I have a problem with all the blaming of Bill when it comes to Margene's age. Margene lied to Bill knowing that her lie could get him into trouble. She then CONTINUED to lie to Bill, and was desperately trying to get out of having to come clean. She lied about who she was because she knew that if she told the truth, Bill wouldn't have a relationship with her. This means that Margene's entire relationship with Bill, Nicki, and Barb was built on a lie. Personally, I don't think that's something you forgive someone for all that easily, especially considering the legal and moral implications of it all too. I'd like to know when Margene told Bill that she was 18. Was it before they started being romantically involved or after? AS, I , as usual, agree with you. I knew many girls at 16 who could have easily convinced someone they were 18 or older. While Bill may have been guilty of being fooled, I feel that the primary responsibility was Margene's and her mother's. Oh thank goodness I was starting to think I was the only one who thought Margene and her mom were more at fault then Bill, Barb, and Niki. Bill got duped and it may cost him a lot but Margene and her mom set it up. Of course I don't buy the storyline so.....
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Post by aliensummer on Feb 1, 2011 9:10:19 GMT -5
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way! I think it's way too easy to blame Bill for this simply because Margene has always been made to be a sympathetic character on the show and Bill, well, hasn't.
Margene clearly knew that what she was doing was wrong and the possible repercussions for her actions. I don't see why Bill or anyone else in the family should be expected to have checked her ID to make sure she was telling the truth. Bill loves Margene and had no reason to think that not only would she lie to him, but that she would put his family (that she said she loves and cares about) into harms way.
I think at this point, Bill needs to leave politics because it's only a matter of time before someone looks into his wive's pasts (if someone hasn't started to already).
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Post by southernsong on Feb 1, 2011 9:12:26 GMT -5
But she worked for Bill at Home Plus. She would have to show her ID there. By law, there are things 16 year olds are not allowed to do that 18 year olds can. Bill should have known her age by that. If not, she was the babysitter. I cannot believe he would hire someone to watch his children all day without some sort of background check. That would give her age, too. Bill was just being lazy to not know her age.
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Post by albertaleon on Feb 1, 2011 9:44:59 GMT -5
I can't blame Margene because Margene was a child. The reason the age of majority by law is 18 is to protect young people for they are too immature to make reasonable decisions.
Bill putting his trust into Margene's mother - a drunk deadbeat mother - when it came to Margene's age is ridiculous. It's also ridiculous for Bill to put his trust into an immature girl when it came to Margene's age.
When Bill became attracted to Margene he should have known he was going down the wrong path when a conversation about Margene's age came up. When Bill had to say "you are 18, right" or when Margene said "it's okay Bill I'm 18" Bill should have known he was on a slippery slope. Margene at 18 was too young for Bill!
I think Margene's age illustrates Bill's disregard to common sense - again, Bill should have had the common sense to know thinking "it's okay because she's 18" meant Margene was too young.
All of Bill's wife have major vulnerabilities which they need to have protection from. Instead Bill has taken advantage of all of his wives weaknesses: Barb's illness, Niki's desire to get off the compound, and Margene's desire to be loved.
At the end of the day Bill is leading this family & he isn't using sound judgement - Bill isn't behaving in a way where he shows his wives pure love - pure love is the absence of having someone take advantage of your weaknesses & vulnerabilities -- love should build a person up making them stronger, inspired, confident & whole.
Since there had to be a conversation about Margene & is she or isn't she 18 - Bill's sexual relationship with this child was wrong. I always thought Margene was too young for Bill - in fact I enjoyed Ben & Margene together - but I was happy for Margene because I thought she was getting the family she longed for. This never materialized for Margene as she entered the family as the babysitter & never lost this position.
The reaction Margene received from her family when she said she was 16 when she was sealed to Bill was horrible - your family is supposed to make you feel better. Bill & Barb first thought if they truly loved Margene should have been to find out if Margene was broken since she was a child bride & mother - Bill & Barb should be thinking about how to heal Margene. Worrying about Bill's political career is silly because Bill's political career exist in Bill's mind only. Alby has just as much political power as Bill does - Alby was able to get the ball rolling on legislation against Bill because as Alby put it he has friends on the hill.
Bill's political career is moot because there is no way the state of Utah would allow a known polygamist to legally represent constituents. Bill should have been putting his family first & making sure everything was okay at home - if Bill would have been doing this perhaps he would have known Margene was 16 when they were sealed. I think Bill could have found a much better way to come into the light other than running for political office.
When a person is truly loved they feel safe to share information that makes them feel shamed - Margene has never felt safe enough to share what makes her feel shamed - to me this is sad.
Bill had no business running for political office - if this was his desire Bill should have never started The Principle. Bill could have been an elected official with Barb as a wife & Bill still could have done great things towards Compound Life as he was familiar with it. It seems to me Bill does what he wants when he wants to with who he wants to & doesn't take other people into consideration.
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Post by rissmeek on Feb 1, 2011 13:46:53 GMT -5
But she worked for Bill at Home Plus. She would have to show her ID there. By law, there are things 16 year olds are not allowed to do that 18 year olds can. Bill should have known her age by that. If not, she was the babysitter. I cannot believe he would hire someone to watch his children all day without some sort of background check. That would give her age, too. Bill was just being lazy to not know her age. You are right which is probably where the quote, "Your mother said you were 18" came from. I didn't think that it sounded like he hadn't done a little bit of looking at least.
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Post by bigluvjunkie on Feb 1, 2011 19:04:15 GMT -5
I still can't get over how little foreshadowing there is for this event.
For starters, had it ever been mentioned before that Marge was 18 (or the fam believed she was 18) when she married Bill? The show repeatedly reinforced that Margie had had jobs and life experiences pre-Bill. So honestly I saw her character as being at least 24ish...old enough to have regrets about lost youth etc. But according to the new timeline...Marge is 19-20 max right? Bill and Barb ought to be sending her to BYU.
Also, Marge was always perceived as being immature--if Marge claimed to only be 18 (I had previously imagined she was a fully grown 21 year old woman when she met the family...the actress that plays her cannot pass for less than 20 right?), then wouldn't the family have been curious about her exact age?
Bill is ethically and legally responsible. But Marge betrayed the family and showed extremely poor judgment by trying to conceal this. Poor Bill turns out to be no better than Roman after all.
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Post by morgain13 on Feb 1, 2011 20:49:00 GMT -5
because the writers just decided to change the story
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Post by aliensummer on Feb 1, 2011 21:34:45 GMT -5
albertaleonThe law is meant to protect children from adults who intentionally go after younger children. And, I will fully admit that legally, Bill is responsible. However, Margene knew that Bill wouldn't be with her if he knew her real age, hence the lie. Also, 18 is a completely arbitrary age, and in some places, the age of consent is 16 because the politicians in those areas believe that by that age someone should be able to make reasonable decisions. And we do expect 16 year olds to make reasonable decisions all of the time. Why would he expect her mom to lie? She had absolutely nothing to gain by saying that Margene was 18. Whether or not Margene, if she were 18 when she started the relationship with Bill, was too young for him is really subjective and I don't think it really matters in this discussion. To me, what matters is the fact that Margene lied to him. So that's really all I have to say about that (for now at least). I have to admit, I really don't understand your logic and this is the only reason why I'm replying. The family just found out that the entire time they knew her, Margene was lying to them about who she was. What else is she lying about? What else is she hiding? On top of that, her lie put their entire family into danger. And if Margene really loved Bill, Barb, Nicki, and their children, she wouldn't have lied to them in the first place about her age. If anyone ever found out about Margene's real age, Bill, the main breadwinner, their husband and their father, could be put in jail. What would that have done to the people that Margene loves? What could her lie still do to them? Also, I think it's kind of offensive to say that Margene is a child bride in the same way that children forced into marriages are. Fact is, if Margene didn't want to marry Bill, she didn't have to. In fact, if she told him her real age, he wouldn't have married her and would never have had those children with her. Margene started the lie not because she felt shamed, but because she knew she had to lie to get what she wanted. She continued the lie because she knew she was in the wrong and the effects her lie could have on the entire family. To me, it's sad that Margene joined the family under false pretenses and put Bill into a situation that he wouldn't have otherwise been in if the truth was known.
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Post by rissmeek on Feb 1, 2011 22:03:32 GMT -5
I still can't get over how little foreshadowing there is for this event. For starters, had it ever been mentioned before that Marge was 18 (or the fam believed she was 18) when she married Bill? The show repeatedly reinforced that Margie had had jobs and life experiences pre-Bill. So honestly I saw her character as being at least 24ish...old enough to have regrets about lost youth etc. But according to the new timeline...Marge is 19-20 max right? Bill and Barb ought to be sending her to BYU. Also, Marge was always perceived as being immature--if Marge claimed to only be 18 (I had previously imagined she was a fully grown 21 year old woman when she met the family...the actress that plays her cannot pass for less than 20 right?), then wouldn't the family have been curious about her exact age? Bill is ethically and legally responsible. But Marge betrayed the family and showed extremely poor judgment by trying to conceal this. Poor Bill turns out to be no better than Roman after all. Margene is supposed to be at least 5 years older than Ben, then it was three but she was still in her 20's. What I can't figure out is in earlier seasons we saw Marge sneak some drinks so who was her supplier?
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Post by aliensummer on Feb 1, 2011 22:19:55 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, the show started three years after Margene's marriage, making her 19 when the show started. I have no idea how years have progressed since then, but we know that at least one year has passed, making her at the very least 20 now.
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Post by rissmeek on Feb 1, 2011 22:22:20 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, the show started three years after Margene's marriage, making her 19 when the show started. I have no idea how years have progressed since then, but we know that at least one year has passed, making her at the very least 20 now. With the new information that is, at first she was 21/22 when the show started.
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Post by withay on Feb 2, 2011 2:15:42 GMT -5
As far as Margene being able to buy alcohol, cigarettes and why nobody at Home Plus seeing her age on her ID...The answer is simple. Margene, like lots of teenagers, probably had a fake ID. She may have even gotten it just so she could get a job. IMO, Ginger holds the most responsibility for this because she knew Margene's age and how much trouble Bill could get in. Again, IMO, she probably was just happy to not have the responsibility of Margene anymore. I think Bill and Margene are equally responsible. Margene because she knew and Bill because he should have.
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Post by kambria on Feb 2, 2011 2:56:50 GMT -5
I'm just completely disgusted by this plot twist. I'm guessing the writers must have added this in so it could be another one of the causes for Bill's downfall this season. We all know his political career isn't going to work...
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Post by albertaleon on Feb 2, 2011 11:39:40 GMT -5
Statutory rape laws are made to protect those not capable of giving consent. Adults bear the full brunt of responsibility in such cases. When Lawrence Taylor had sex with a 16 year girl - even though this girl told Lawrence Taylor that she was 19 - Taylor was still charged with statutory rape. Even though the girl told Taylor she was 19 because of Taylor's middle age status - Taylor was still at fault because there was no excuse for a man of his age to seek sex from a 19 year old. Teenagers lack the mental capacity to make sound judgments - it's the reason why a teenager cannot enter into a valid contract.
Bill should have known having sex with Margene was wrong regardless if Margene was 18 or 15. If Bill loved Margene - Bill would have courted Margene for at least a year. During this time Bill could have gotten to know Margene & perhaps the truth would have come out then. With Bill believing Margene was 18 when he was sealed to her - Bill being a middle aged man should have expected Margene to be immature & even possibly lie. Bill had the responsibility if he loved Margene to find out everything about her - Bill out of love should have been naturally curious to get to know Margene & to make Margene feel so safe & secure that anything she felt shameful about would be safe with him.
Margene probably was attracted to Bill because she came from a broken family - Margene was obviously very young & was living responding to her emotions not her wisdom. Bill did take advantage of Margene because she wanted love & a family - Bill wanted sex. If this wasn't true Bill would have refrained from having sex with Margene & Bill would have put the work & time needed into building a loving relationship with her. If Bill was truly concerned with Margene's soul her would not have been having sex with her at 18 because her would have been exploring Margene's strengths & weaknesses & helping Margene become the best person she can be - then Bill would have been sealed to Margene when Margene was whole.
When Margene told the family she was 16 when she was sealed to Bill - the family should have responded in a loving way towards Margene. I was really disappointed that they didn't say "Oh Margene we are in this together, we love you, we don't want you to feel shamed, you should have always felt secure enough in this family to tell us anything - how are you doing?"
Bill will not go to jail because of Margene's age. Bill isn't going to look bad because of Margene's age because Bill already looks bad. Margene being 16 at the time of being sealed illustrates the disconnect this family has with their goal of being a strong united family & the failings of Bill - Bill failed Margene & Barb & Niki because Bill wasn't motivated from a pure place when he started having sex with Margene - if Bill would have been motivated from a pure place Bill would have known Margene so well that he knew she was 16 or at least Bill would have realized that at 18 her maturity level was so that Margene needed guidance & wisdom before making their relationship sexual.
The legal concept of Moral Turpitude would have sent Bill to jail for having three wives, running for office, lying to the public & concealing being a polygamist to get elected. Margene trusted Bill - Bill due to his age & position in life made him a person of trust - having sex with Margene, failing to find out more about Margene before having sex - crossed a line. Margene seemed to be more of a temptation of Bill's - much like Ana but Ana saw Bill's true colors - Bill should have taken the time to get to know Margene so she would have had the maturity on how to have a sincere & meaningful relationship. Bill failed Margene by having sex with her & not helping Margene grow into a mature person that would have the ability to handle the pressures a polygamist relationship - or any relationship - brings.
I'm disappointed that Bill didn't appear to be hurt or upset at himself for being so blinded by temptation & lust towards Margene that he was able to take advantage of her. I'm sure Bill manipulated the situation a little bit telling Margene how wonderful living The Principle is & how she would be loved on earth & for eternity.
Look at the sexual relationship Mackenzie Phillips had with her father - for most of her life Phillips believed at 17 she wanted to have sex with her father - she thought it was consensual. Now Phillips realizes that due to the inherent power a parent and / or adult has over a teenager it wasn't consensual.
The American Journal for Preventative Medicine published a study which states teen girls who have sex are more likely to suffer from depression - because of having sex too early. Margene does seem to get depressed!
I just think Bill is at fault. Margene should not be blamed by anyone in that family - because it shows that they are not really interested in each other's soul - this wouldn't have happened with Margene if this was a family interested in making each other whole, inspired, empowered, & closer to God. Bill needs to find out if Margene is okay because like it or not he had sex with a 16 year old girl & this has had to have had some negative impact on Margene - something Bill if he loves Margene's first priority would be to heal. Also, Bill should be interested in healing the part of Margene that would allow herself to lie about her age - Bill needs to find out what was so broken in Margene that she would be willing to dedicate herself to Bill, Barb & Niki - Bill needs to find out why Margene didn't believe in herself enough to pursue college.
Margene is a broken girl and has been since she met Bill. If Margene's family loves her their only concern will be making Margene right, whole & secure. Bill doesn't have a political career it's a joke but his love for Margene should not be a joke- I'm starting to wonder what direction if any Bill really has.
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Post by aliensummer on Feb 2, 2011 13:06:15 GMT -5
Albertaleon,
Are you telling me that Margene is not in any way at fault for lying to the family because she was a teenager? That everyone should look past her lie?
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