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Post by katilee on Mar 9, 2010 16:07:00 GMT -5
Thanks Charlottelaurie! And yes, I agree with you about Nikki becoming his Adaleen. Though, just hearing Adaleen's name makes me laugh.
I see what you are saying JJ77, but the fact that Barb rescued Bill makes me think that Bill's love for her is the more self-serving kind. By the time he fell for Nikki and Marge, they needed him much more than he needed them, so he really had no motivation to marry them if he did not love them. With Nikki, maybe...b/c Barb was sick. But certainly, he could have said no to Margene.
I know this myself b/c my first serious relationship was with a wonderful, steady man, a male version of Barb. He came from a wonderful family. We met in college, and I came from a very tumultous upbringing. He was my Barb for five years, giving me the security I needed to grow into the woman I was meant to be. But in the end, I did not marry him. I knew I was not in love with him like he was with me. I was only with him b/c he gave me that sense of family I never knew. We parted as friends, and he is with a wonderful woman and I, a great husband. Had I been Bill though, been a man and already married him, maybe I would have tried polygamy, No? Especially if I had grown up around it? This way he has his sense of family and security, but he is also free to find love. (Nikki and maybe Margene).
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dsc6
Junior Member
Posts: 90
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Post by dsc6 on Mar 9, 2010 17:31:01 GMT -5
I like this thread. I have always been somewhat taken aback by how much people on here 'hate' Bill. He's screwed up big time, and has sacrificed more than he should have, by far, in his persuit of 'living in the light' as he put it the last episode. BUT:
Did you see how he dealt with JJ when they couldn't reach Adaleen? He's frigging not afraid of anyone. I mean, JJ is seriously creepy psycho. Bill was 'the man' in that exchange. No yelling, no fighting, no fists, etc., just, in a controlled and quiet voice, "You won't be seeing or hearing from CaraLynn until we know that Adaleen is well and safe." Gotcha!! Period, end of story. And then just turned on his heel and walked away. Bill knows how to be that way, he has done it almost in every episode.
And when he confronted Paley. He was smoother than butter. Not one single vibe of 'fistfight'. He threw that line, "I wouldn't want to have to go to the press." in the middle of the conversation without one single change in his demeanor of concerned sincerity, not in his eyes or face or posture or anything. That the sign of somebody who knows what the h*ll he is doing. And it worked, in terms of what he asked Paley to do...
His response to Nikki was perfect, as far as I am concerned. And he is always willing to go racing after his wives or kids if/when they are in trouble. Seriously. He is not a bit conflicted about his wives when push comes down to shove. He made a mistake, however, in not attending Margene's big host episode of her shopping show. And he paid a big price for that.....and almost lost his life.
As far as Barb telling Bill that she needed him for 20 years but doesn't think she needs him anymore--well, FINE. That's GOOD. Sh*t or get off the pot. He manipulated her into the polygamous lifesyle when she was acutely vulnerable--something which he acknowledged and told her he was sorry for. She needs to make some tough choices: either stay in the marriage or leave the marriage. He kidnapped the marriage, true, but what's done is done. She needs to figure out what she needs to do for her. It's never healthy when a woman, or a man for that matter, stays in a relationship that is WRONG for the person just because of the other. She should have told him at the very beginning of this season, and MADE HIM SHUT UP AND LISTEN, 'You manipulated me into polygamy, which I have come to accept to some degree. I love you, and have come to love Nikki and Margene and all our children. But I cannot tolerate being a public polygamous. I neither believe you nor trust you when you say it'll be alright. Period. So you have to know, as you choose what you are going to do, that I will not and can not support you in the 'coming out' part of your plan." Margene could, likewise, have told him, "Regardless of what you think about my business, financial independence is extremely important to me and I will not jeopardize it for your goal of public polygamy, which I don't care all that much about." If 2 of the three wives had been honest with him, he may have reconsidered--or at least have understood what he was risking, lol, being a one-wife polygamist, lol. These people never really talk with each other, for Pete's sake......sheesh. The night of the election is way late for Barb to be wondering what is in Bill's heart, and vice versa. I think her leaking the paternity test result to the Press was almost unforgivable and SO the coward's way out....
He is convinced that coming out of hiding and not having to lie incessantly anymore is the big cure for what ails his family. And for the families of all non-extreme polygamists trying to live in the Utah Mormon, mainstream culture. I don't know what his options were regarding Don, but he may have convinced Don to do what he did because Don deeply wants Bill to succeed in his goal of allowing the above described families to live in honesty and peace. Did you see the look on Don's face during Bills acceptance speech? Bill and Don may have chosen, together, the best of some bad options.
I think there was really no choice in him having Tommy and his father removed from their role in the casino. Especially if what Tommy said is true, that the tribe really, really needs the casino to be successful. Lying to the DEA twice while allowing the illegal activity to continue on the casino floor was nuts of Tommy and his father, and there was no way the situation could be 'helped' by Bill and Barb.
Bill is pragmatic to the core, and is, better or worse, on a hero's journey. He may be up to it or he may not, but let's give credit where credit is due.
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dsc6
Junior Member
Posts: 90
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Post by dsc6 on Mar 9, 2010 17:47:05 GMT -5
I just do not believe that Bill, et al., are going to end up at JC with Bill as the prophet. I think that is going to be Joey. Bill's thing is non-extremist mainstream Utah mormon society.
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Post by JJ77 on Mar 9, 2010 20:37:43 GMT -5
I don't really HATE Bill, I mean if he were a real person I'd find that a strong word to use... but given that he's a fictional character - i'm a little more likely to throw it out there. I have been incredibly frustrated by and angry with him though. The very thing he's suppose to be fighting for (family) has fallen apart due to his neglect and tunnel vision this season. I agree that the characters on this show really need to have a sit down - they dont really talk to one another in a real way. However, i disagree with the idea that Bill was clueless to the fact his wives didnt want to go public, or that he wasn't made aware of their reasoning or feelings about it. Barb especially was pretty clear. Her calling the news station was a desperate act, brought on by the fact that Bill would not truly listen to her concerns. As far as his having tommy and jerry removed form the casino - I think he could have handled it much better. I think they atleast deserved some face time, even if it was to give them an ultimatum - it stops or you go. yk? I think he did it in a very underhanded cowardly way & (after taking a risk on him) they deserved a bit more respect than he showed. You could be right, it could be joey... but i dont think so. Hell, it could be neither one of them  The only reason I see this as a possible (even likely) path for Bill is that I think his run for office and plans of coming out had to do with more than just taking his own family out of the shadows. As he said in his speech - I think Bill really does want to change / put a a stop to all the wrongs happening at the compound. I think he wants to change the face of poly, show a different side of it than the news reports or the negative things associated with the compounds. However, i dont think he is going to find a warm reception by many after coming out. I dont think he's going to be able to get much done from his seat of state senator. So - if you can't change things from the outside in, you change things from the inside out... or atleast that's what I see happening with Bill. I dont think he'd become a nother Hollis / Roman / Alby , I think he would try to set things right. |
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Post by wurks on Mar 9, 2010 20:55:26 GMT -5
I just do not believe that Bill, et al., are going to end up at JC with Bill as the prophet. I think that is going to be Joey. Bill's thing is non-extremist mainstream Utah mormon society. Are you nuts? lol My thoughts too. At great risk of being accused of being patronizing, (to Medusa... and no we did not corroborate this opinion. She does not know until right now that I saw this too) and I only didn't say it myself sooner because it seemed so rather extreme. Bill is just too proud and selfish to ever fill that role. But he would support Joey, loyal to the end. |
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Post by JJ77 on Mar 9, 2010 21:01:39 GMT -5
Oh, almost forgot my one "on topic" comment LOL
I dont really see Bill's becoming polygamous as his searching for real love due to a lack of it for Barb. I think Barb may have been all those things to Bill - a sense of family, etc. but if anything I think that cemented his love of family and brought him back to his core beleifs - gorwing a larger family, living the principle, etc. I think there are all different kinds of love, which doesnt necessarily make one less than the other (just different) and i think bill has a somewhat different love for each of his wives.
Here's my theory on love (I'll keep it short as possible LOL)- everyone has a differnt version of it. It's something that is largely formed and defined over time by our own life experiences and beleifs. Your definition and mine may hold common ground , but will likely differ in the nuances and / details. The love relationships we're in that dont ultimately work out help us to further define and understand what love does and doesnt mean to us. When we find someone who's "version" of love is the same as our own - we have found "true love".
Bill's version of love seems to have extended beyond that "one" true love... (b/c thats what love is to him) and his having a different love for each wife seems pretty normal to me , since they're different people. I just dont know if his wives are in sync with him anymore- I think maybe that "common ground" (I mentioned above) may be shared but the details are changing as the wives are redefining / defining themselves for the first time.
Probablynot enough explanation given there, but ... eh, hopefully you'l make sens of what I was trying to say regardless. (I'm tired... LOL)
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Post by caltron on Mar 9, 2010 21:30:41 GMT -5
Barb: I think Barb is Bill's one true love. She is his rock. If she left, he'd never recover. Bill has some affection for all of his wives, but Nikki and Margene are expendable when push comes to shove. Don't know if she'd ever leave Bill. She's like the typical battered woman.
Nikki: I think Bill admires Nikki for her dedication to the principle, but I don't think he truly loves her. While he appreciates her loyalty and fierce devotion, there are times where it seems that he doesn't even like being around her. He has been willing to throw her under the bus more than once during this series. I don't think Nikki really loves Bill either. She's just happy to be off the compound more than anything.
Margene: Bill doesn't seem to love Margene for who she is. Margene is an incredible woman with amazing talents, but Bill doesn't even care about any of that. He loves her for what she does for his ego--the typical May-December romance. Margene is probably the one most likely to leave Bill.
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Post by katilee on Mar 10, 2010 18:27:07 GMT -5
Dsc6,
I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY with what you said. I think you have the best grasp of the show so far from what I have read. Bill IS on a hero's journey. As an English Teacher, I can tell you. That is his archeotype. He is a "Flawed Hero."
And yes, I have often wondered why Barb would agree to such a thing ONLY to complain about it constantly for 10 years. Either you say yes and deal with the consequences or you say no. If you don't agree, one of you leaves. Obviously, she comes from the "Henpeck my husband to death school of thought."
I see a lot of women her age and older do a similar thing, but I bet even my grandmother would have left before she agreed to polygamy.
And I've said it twice, I'll state it again. Bill did what he had to do regarding Tommy and his Dad. That meth thing is so extreme. There is just no way anyone IRL would be saying he should've let it go.
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Post by JJ77 on Mar 10, 2010 19:16:06 GMT -5
I'm not saying he should have let the meth thing go by any means. (just to clarify) I'm just saying he could have handled it differently...
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Post by rissmeek on Mar 10, 2010 20:51:15 GMT -5
I'm not saying he should have let the meth thing go by any means. (just to clarify) I'm just saying he could have handled it differently... I agree!! |
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Post by BigLoveRocks! on Mar 11, 2010 0:23:21 GMT -5
I also think Bill could have handled it differently.
Barb was right, there could have been some way they could have figured out as a group to handle the situation.
Like maybe forced Layla into a drug detox for a while, get off off the streets and off the casino floor.
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Post by JJ77 on Mar 11, 2010 0:29:57 GMT -5
Even if the Flutes immediately leaving the casino was necessary... they deserved a sit down, some face time and some elaboration if not explanation. It seemed like Bill just made a phone call and had them thrown out.
I don't think the way he handed it was due strictly to the whole meth situation though - I think he was still a little pissed about them hiring Marilyn... or more accurately them (barb included) going against him on it.
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Post by withay on Mar 11, 2010 4:30:49 GMT -5
I also think Bill could have handled it differently. Barb was right, there could have been some way they could have figured out as a group to handle the situation. Like maybe forced Layla into a drug detox for a while, get off off the streets and off the casino floor. But the problem was not just Layla, he said it was the whole branch of the family was involved in drugs. Take away Layla and there is another one right behind her. |
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lism
New Member
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Post by lism on Mar 11, 2010 21:21:10 GMT -5
Good point withay but...I agree with Barb that they should have handled it differently. It just seems that Bill often times doesn't do things the way Barb would like lately.
As for his relationships with his wives.........sigh........
IMHO, Barb is as he said his first love, she loved him when they were young and loves him now. This finale episode is the first time I can remember Barb actually showing any disloyality at all. Nikki on the other hand...and Margene..
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Post by northporter on Mar 11, 2010 22:22:19 GMT -5
Barb: Bill does love her, but more as a "marriage manager" than a wife... They have been together for years. People change... or should I say settle. When you have something that works people tend to take it for granted. I think that Bill is def. taking Barb for granted. He is so wrapped up in all the other drama that he doesn't see her stress... he only yells at her and punishes her (by kicking out the casino guys instead of coming up w/ a better solution). He is so used to her doing "what's best for the family/businesses" that he forgets that she is a woman w/ needs and feelings... not just the person that balances the family check book and looks pretty for election photos. The only reason I see him letting Barb go is because she is no longer valuable to him or his "mission" anymore... and they seem to think they are the only adults in the family... so he does listen to her when it comes to ultimatums.... but not her feelings as a woman.
Nikki: He certainly values her as a strong helper w/ the compound and the "shady" spy stuff. She worries too much about her worth in the marriage. Bill will never let her go, like Barb. So, I don't think she gets it until the last episode... Her and Bill both want power and they know they, out of all in the union,are the only one's willing to do anything for it. He does love her... do you notice how he spends more time doing romantic things w/ Nikki? Not just because of the baby stuff or the affair she almost had. Even in the first few seasons, he gave her more womanly attention and gave in to her demands.
Margie: she doesn't really love him. She does care for him and the family... in the way you care for your brother or father... but not husband/wife love. She's too young and has no experience. She also only sticks around to prove everyone else wrong. I love her on the show... I don't think it would have been as interesting w/o a younger wife. She makes it easier to bring in new story lines. I also think Bill doesn't truly love her. He just feels as if he is her protector and the fact that she is young ad pretty is just the icing on the cake for him. He treats her like a child... which was fine in the first 2 seasons but now she is older and doing for herself... Bill can't except it. I could see him kicking her out of the union but I can also see her leaving of her own will.
I would actually like to see Bill compete w/ Ana and her lover over Margie... I know lots of fans are bored w/ this plot but it does gave Margie some more time to find herself and show us where she's really coming from.
Ana: I think Ana didn't love Bill but was totally into him enough to be fooled into marrying the family. it was a normal courtship w/ these two. While I do think he was trying to escape all the stress of home life when he first met her... I mainly think that he was just being greedy. All was going well (compared to now) when he met Ana... so he thought "why not?". I do love her part. She is saying what most women would say if they were shoved into the same situation... I like how she fusses w/ her accent. Also, she brings in a non religious point of view to the marriage. I'm sure no religious people can get into the show more when there are characters on the show that aren't only in it for the principle... In the real world it's not so easy to find four attractive super religious women that are all okay with sharing a man, and they don't go crazy. That's not realistic. Ana brings a bit of the real world in (so does Sissy Spacek). It seems as if Ana is used to bull crap being thrown at her... she fusses but then goes back for more... even before the pregnancy.
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