Post by pookems on Mar 22, 2011 3:58:40 GMT -5
bearing in mind that i have JUST watched the episode and read through these forums, and have typed in a hurry while emotional and have not made an effort to check spelling and grammar accuracy...
please endure this but i thought it easier to put my thoughts in one place than reply to every very interesting thread and go off on too many tangents
Firstly I want to address the issues of Margie’s involvement with Pam and Carl somehow leading to bill’s death. I argue that it was in no way foreseeable for her (or any of us viewers!- although when I saw Pam reappear in the preview talking about Carl losing the plot my suspicions were raised something fishy involving Carl would happen, but never guessed this!) and may have occurred anyway.
If GOJI hadn't suckered Pam in, something else would have. Carl was clearly making suicide attempts which could have easily killed himself, Pam, or a random stranger. His church knew he was struggling, and did nothing. his church were not supportive tor Pam and Carl so they couldn't approach to explain HOW much they were struggling- they didn't reach out for help- in fact Carl stopped attending out of embarrassment! I think this makes a comment about the pressure that the church CAN put on people (not only in the compounds do these demands have devastating implications on individuals). The hospitals/police aware of his car accidents appear to have done nothing to intervene, and Pam appears to not to have somewhere to turn about her concerns. Bill happened to be Carl’s victim (we don't know if anyone else was) but the potential for an innocent person to pay the price for Carl’s violence was there whether Margie had befriended Pam or told her to rack off.
Besides, being a good neighbour, bill likely would have fixed the darn lawn were Margie friends with Pam and Carl or not. that's the kind of guy bill was, and like him or loathe him he acted out his life's values the best he could, and when he failed to do so he often reflected on this and made amends (even recognising barb's priesthood in the end). He would have fixed the lawn!
Bill’s death is made more shocking as it came from 'outside' the polygamist 'world' and apparently had nothing to do with polygamy. which highlights that injustice, cruelty, tragedy, pain, madness, come not only from inside the supposedly seediness of the polygamist compounds, but also from Mr. Normal himself, Carl the neighbour guy, the most innocuous character in the whole darn show up until this season.
To me, this speaks to something central about the whole show. I’m an Australian atheist who knew NOTHING about polygamy in the Mormon tradition until I stumbled onto this show a few years back. It has since been my favourite show, because as foreign as this world is to me (and THANK YOU to this forum – and Google search! - for helping me to understand some of the context in which this show sits) the personalities, trials, emotions, relationships, symbols, expressions, and so forth are universal. (I SWEAR I know a person just like Rhonda, I’ve met at least three franks, I have a little bit of nicki in my heart, and there are several Roman-esque personalities working as high school principals and upper management wherever you go in the world).
So even as we have witnessed all the madness unfold in Big Love, we recognised it. And at times, we will have been tempted to say ‘those people!’ ‘only on Big Love’ ‘only on the compounds…’ and ‘oh those religious fundamentalists!’. And yet, for a westerner as most of the Big Love audience is, Carl would be a character we could probably relate to most- witnessing this family, watching with curiosity the dozens of people in prairie costumes show up for parties, and thinking to ourselves ‘those people are not me’—or as the LDS church was saying ‘those Mormons are not Mormon like we Mormons are Mormons… in fact, they aren’t Mormons’. And yet, here is Carl, as cruel and damaged and let down by his community as any compound villain.
I quote writer Olsen “.,..The show has had some comments to make about misogyny. And even though we’re looking at it in the context of polygamy, I hope the echoes of some of the things that we’re decrying through the relationships that we explore transcend that brittle architecture of polygamy as a larger statement. There remains a certain misogyny afoot in the world, and we had a few comments about that.” www.tvline.com/2011/03/big-love-post-mortem-your-burning-series-finale-questions-answered/
And finally, Bill’s statement “Faith comes out of this love, and not the other way around”, has got to be the message of this whole series… and gave me chills. Because while I am used to the show’s amazing commentary about the human condition, social/religious oppression and ways in which this can be subverted, and the complexities of relationships, this statement really rang true in an overarching way about the message of Bill and his family. I know many viewers didn’t like Bill and as a feminist, I can understand many of the concerns I’ve seen expressed in these forums. But I’ve always felt that the writers have gone to great strains to assure us that at his heart, he is a good person who not only tries to do the right thing but can reflect on his own behaviour, admit fault, seek redemption and do better next time, apologise and forge ahead, and be respectful.
Bill wasn’t perfect, but in the end he usually ‘got there’- and I think that this statement he made was the final realisation of what had been driving him and his family all along. Surely this must have aided in the liberation which allowed Barb to have the priesthood, Ben to marry Heather (I would assume monogamously), for Sarah to now have her baby blessed in the church she first rejected, for Margie to go on (short) missions… for the church Bill made to be a Broad Church, an Inclusive Church, and find strength in that love that feeds the faith. This subverts the paradigm which the compounds (and the LDS church as depicted in the show?) used which was so oppressive- that faith came first before love.
And with that final message I am satisfied... Only I can't help but feel devestated at the same time. Although a big part of that is my saddness of not being able to jump onto this site after every episode (and resisting temptation not to read any of your comments before i was able to watch the latest episode) and also Big Love has been a friend to me over the past 5 seasons, through some very hard times when i would fantasise about being like nicki, barb or margie, a sister wife in a loving relationship, no matter how bad things got for the characters i was jealous of the love they had. And I wish i could tell the writers how grateful i have been for their intelligent, compelling stories which stole my heart
please endure this but i thought it easier to put my thoughts in one place than reply to every very interesting thread and go off on too many tangents
Firstly I want to address the issues of Margie’s involvement with Pam and Carl somehow leading to bill’s death. I argue that it was in no way foreseeable for her (or any of us viewers!- although when I saw Pam reappear in the preview talking about Carl losing the plot my suspicions were raised something fishy involving Carl would happen, but never guessed this!) and may have occurred anyway.
If GOJI hadn't suckered Pam in, something else would have. Carl was clearly making suicide attempts which could have easily killed himself, Pam, or a random stranger. His church knew he was struggling, and did nothing. his church were not supportive tor Pam and Carl so they couldn't approach to explain HOW much they were struggling- they didn't reach out for help- in fact Carl stopped attending out of embarrassment! I think this makes a comment about the pressure that the church CAN put on people (not only in the compounds do these demands have devastating implications on individuals). The hospitals/police aware of his car accidents appear to have done nothing to intervene, and Pam appears to not to have somewhere to turn about her concerns. Bill happened to be Carl’s victim (we don't know if anyone else was) but the potential for an innocent person to pay the price for Carl’s violence was there whether Margie had befriended Pam or told her to rack off.
Besides, being a good neighbour, bill likely would have fixed the darn lawn were Margie friends with Pam and Carl or not. that's the kind of guy bill was, and like him or loathe him he acted out his life's values the best he could, and when he failed to do so he often reflected on this and made amends (even recognising barb's priesthood in the end). He would have fixed the lawn!
Bill’s death is made more shocking as it came from 'outside' the polygamist 'world' and apparently had nothing to do with polygamy. which highlights that injustice, cruelty, tragedy, pain, madness, come not only from inside the supposedly seediness of the polygamist compounds, but also from Mr. Normal himself, Carl the neighbour guy, the most innocuous character in the whole darn show up until this season.
To me, this speaks to something central about the whole show. I’m an Australian atheist who knew NOTHING about polygamy in the Mormon tradition until I stumbled onto this show a few years back. It has since been my favourite show, because as foreign as this world is to me (and THANK YOU to this forum – and Google search! - for helping me to understand some of the context in which this show sits) the personalities, trials, emotions, relationships, symbols, expressions, and so forth are universal. (I SWEAR I know a person just like Rhonda, I’ve met at least three franks, I have a little bit of nicki in my heart, and there are several Roman-esque personalities working as high school principals and upper management wherever you go in the world).
So even as we have witnessed all the madness unfold in Big Love, we recognised it. And at times, we will have been tempted to say ‘those people!’ ‘only on Big Love’ ‘only on the compounds…’ and ‘oh those religious fundamentalists!’. And yet, for a westerner as most of the Big Love audience is, Carl would be a character we could probably relate to most- witnessing this family, watching with curiosity the dozens of people in prairie costumes show up for parties, and thinking to ourselves ‘those people are not me’—or as the LDS church was saying ‘those Mormons are not Mormon like we Mormons are Mormons… in fact, they aren’t Mormons’. And yet, here is Carl, as cruel and damaged and let down by his community as any compound villain.
I quote writer Olsen “.,..The show has had some comments to make about misogyny. And even though we’re looking at it in the context of polygamy, I hope the echoes of some of the things that we’re decrying through the relationships that we explore transcend that brittle architecture of polygamy as a larger statement. There remains a certain misogyny afoot in the world, and we had a few comments about that.” www.tvline.com/2011/03/big-love-post-mortem-your-burning-series-finale-questions-answered/
And finally, Bill’s statement “Faith comes out of this love, and not the other way around”, has got to be the message of this whole series… and gave me chills. Because while I am used to the show’s amazing commentary about the human condition, social/religious oppression and ways in which this can be subverted, and the complexities of relationships, this statement really rang true in an overarching way about the message of Bill and his family. I know many viewers didn’t like Bill and as a feminist, I can understand many of the concerns I’ve seen expressed in these forums. But I’ve always felt that the writers have gone to great strains to assure us that at his heart, he is a good person who not only tries to do the right thing but can reflect on his own behaviour, admit fault, seek redemption and do better next time, apologise and forge ahead, and be respectful.
Bill wasn’t perfect, but in the end he usually ‘got there’- and I think that this statement he made was the final realisation of what had been driving him and his family all along. Surely this must have aided in the liberation which allowed Barb to have the priesthood, Ben to marry Heather (I would assume monogamously), for Sarah to now have her baby blessed in the church she first rejected, for Margie to go on (short) missions… for the church Bill made to be a Broad Church, an Inclusive Church, and find strength in that love that feeds the faith. This subverts the paradigm which the compounds (and the LDS church as depicted in the show?) used which was so oppressive- that faith came first before love.
And with that final message I am satisfied... Only I can't help but feel devestated at the same time. Although a big part of that is my saddness of not being able to jump onto this site after every episode (and resisting temptation not to read any of your comments before i was able to watch the latest episode) and also Big Love has been a friend to me over the past 5 seasons, through some very hard times when i would fantasise about being like nicki, barb or margie, a sister wife in a loving relationship, no matter how bad things got for the characters i was jealous of the love they had. And I wish i could tell the writers how grateful i have been for their intelligent, compelling stories which stole my heart
