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Post by duets on Feb 8, 2011 15:14:12 GMT -5
www.byutv.org/watch/1914-100This is a link for this movie, for anyone interested. "Her legacy is forever linked to that of her husband's, the Prophet Joseph Smith. But who really was Emma Hale Smith? Many years after the death of Joseph, Emma recounts to her daughter her experiences relating to the birth of Mormonism and her everyday life with Joseph." I found this review of the above movie: I just saw the movie "Emma Smith, My Story", tonight. I was hoping that it would have addressed issues such as why Emma elected to stay in Nauvoo after Joseph's death, and how she dealt with her experiences as she learned that Joseph had secretly taken other wives. I was also anxious to learn of her involvement with her son's leadership in the reorganized church and just generally the part of her history that we don't know much about as typical mormons. Don't expect to learn anything new from this film. It would have been more appropriately named, "Emma Smith, 1/2 of My Story". Polygamy was a major issue and conflict in Emma's life but it only garnered maybe 30 seconds worth of attention in the movie. The movie comes across as though it were a church production that was made to be shown in the visitor's center. It was beautifully done but if you want to learn about anything in Emma's life besides mormonism you will probably be disappointed. written 4/'08 by Blair www.deseretnews.com/user/comments/695268949/Emma-Smith-is-a-labor-of-love.html
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Post by albertaleon on Feb 9, 2011 9:27:07 GMT -5
Thanks for posting this Duets!
There has been an investigating using DNA from the children claimed to be fathered by JS. So far, none of the DNA matches making JS not the father of the children. I thought this was interesting.
From what I've read, the people who accuse JS of being involved in polygamy and polyandry state JS kept this secret from Emma. The fact JS kept this secret from Emma was interesting to me because Emma would not have been the first wife. I didn't know a person could practice polygamy in secret.
Emma her entire life denied JS practiced polygamy and / or polyandry. I wonder if Emma was right & suffered wrongly with the accusations about her husband - because now the DNA test performed on children who were said to be fathered by JS have shown JS is not the father. One person said her mother said on her death bed "JS is your father" - but now DNA test have shown JS was not this person's father.
The Henricksons can have anything written about them in the future, or now for that matter. Especially in the future it can be said Bill practiced polyandry (Ana, Goran, and Ana's baby), Bill knew Margene was 15 when he started having sex with her & forced Margene into polygamy (being forced into polygamy is an accusations against JS) -- Bill is struggling & fighting past & current perceptions of polygamy.
I know I wrote so much about this in another thread, so, I won't go on. However, Bill's dream & learning about Emma are both interesting topics to me.
Bill's dream along with learning about JS & Emma has both been really interesting to me. I'm really thankful Duets that you have looked up & posted information.
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Post by duets on Feb 9, 2011 12:33:42 GMT -5
albertaleon, you are most welcome! I too enjoy the history behind the 1800's Mormon community. Here's another link that I found very interesting about Emma, which is an X-Mormon site. I like reading both sides of the religion as well, site is posted in another thread as well. www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_emmasmith.html |
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Post by birdie16 on Feb 9, 2011 18:24:13 GMT -5
All this research totally backs up Bill's statement about the Morman church lying for 150 years!
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Post by duets on Feb 9, 2011 19:15:27 GMT -5
All this research totally backs up Bill's statement about the Morman church lying for 150 years! Yes, it does. It's as if the folks are spoonfed as to what to say or what NOT to say. If one dares to say anything different then they suddenly become an apostate. Only alowed to read LDS approved material or FLDS, (whatever the faith). Thinking for one's self goes right out the window! Major control restraints & the bisop is the watchdog for compliance. CONTROL Another example of this is that "Mormonism teaches that one must suppress the emotions and problems - and pray and forgive those who imposed the injustices on them." I'm not sure where/how the blood atonement fits in here, (NOT practiced by LDS) if one is to suppress the emotions & problems? [slight sarcasm] www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_elizabethsmart.html |
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Post by albertaleon on Feb 9, 2011 20:34:34 GMT -5
Duets, In your readings what do you think about JS polygamy & polyandry? The DNA for the children claimed to be fathered by JS has shown JS was not the father. There is still more testing to go. From what I've read people state JS hid his polygamy & polyandry from Emma. I don't see how it could be said JS practiced these things keeping it from Emma - since I thought polygamy was having a first wife involved - which would have been Emma. It sounds more like to me JS had affairs - if he did - and didn't live The Principle - living this would mean Emma would have to be a part of it - correct? For example, if my husband was being sealed to other women without my knowledge then I think this would mean he was having affairs. It would not be as though my husband came to me said he had a revelation from God & wanted to live The Principle & I would be first wife. For JS to be a polygamist or practice polyandry (which I could be spelling wrong but it's when you are sealed to a woman who already has a husband) - Emma would have to be an active willing partner in JS polygamous life. Without Emma being an active part then to me it's JS carrying on affairs. I'm not Mormon but used my husband & I for example only. I'm finding Mormon history very interesting. I'm very thankful to you Duets for doing research & posting it. Most of the things I've read I never knew. I didn't know that there was an ongoing scientific investigating towards JS attempting to find if he did father the children that he was alleged to. I find it interesting that so far none of the DNA tests have shown JS fathered these children - so I'm wondering if Emma was telling the truth when she stated her husband didn't practice polygamy. I'm not influenced either way - for instance I'm not a JS supporter that will maintain he didn't practice polygamy because of my religious beliefs. I also like the way Big Love is showing how Bill's life can be rewritten any way historians choose. He fathered one child with Ana but historians could write he fathered many children with other women. And yes I realize Bill is fictional  I do think the Emma dream Bill had was to show how there is still a fight to find the truth about JS - how dangerous it was for JS to attempt to change things - these things are similar to what The Henricksons are facing. I do think I will be getting books about Emma to read in the near future. I hope even after the seasons end you and I will be able to continue to discuss these things with each other. Again, thank you for taking the time to post the information you have researched. It's been really enjoyable for me. I hope this makes sense. Tonight I made homemade pot pies & I over estimated how quickly this could be done. It's already after 8pm and I still have several more hours of work to do. I'm doing so many things right now but wanted to get on the board to see if you had posted any more of your research. I'm writing quickly & hope this post makes sense. Next time I make pot pies I will start them around 2pm. I think I could have finished quicker but I made my own pie crust with the help of my little one - which when planned sounded like such a fun activity to do together. I love to cook as a family but it's bedtime for this household! Duets, you are doing a great job with your research. Are you a researcher by profession? I'll be looking forward to reading your take on JS & if he did practice polygamy & if Emma new about it & was indeed first wife -- and I'll be looking forward to reading all of your opinions. |
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Post by duets on Feb 9, 2011 22:59:08 GMT -5
Duets, In your readings what do you think about JS polygamy & polyandry? The DNA for the children claimed to be fathered by JS has shown JS was not the father. There is still more testing to go. Well, to begin with, most of history says that JS practiced polygamy, he was known to have had some 33 wives, then even more after his death. Every woman wanted to be married (as did their husband(s) so that they would be a member of JS's Celestial Kingdom & have direct heir to him. Women came out of the woodwork to be married to him. Since the M's do the baptism's for the dead, they also in this case performed marriages as well. I can't imagine what that would have been like, ooooh, lol. From what I've read people state JS hid his polygamy & polyandry from Emma. I don't see how it could be said JS practiced these things keeping it from Emma - since I thought polygamy was having a first wife involved - which would have been Emma. It sounds more like to me JS had affairs - if he did - and didn't live The Principle - living this would mean Emma would have to be a part of it - correct? "Several times Emma seemed to accept plural marriage only to change her mind later. Evidently Joseph had tried on a number of occasions to convince her it was of God and necessary for her salvation. Finally, after assuring her that with acceptance she would also be sealed eternally to Joseph, she agreed to his marrying two sets of sisters, ranging in age from sixteen to twenty-two, who were living in the home" www.utlm.org/newsletters/no112.htm#EmmaJS talked to his bro Hyrum Smith 7/1843 to wriite the line & verse to make polygamy official in the eyes of M'ism. If Emma thought it came from God; rather than JS, then she would buy into it. Emma wasn't fooled so easily, as she took the written paper, said uh-hum, then threw the paper into the fire-place. Then again, Emma traveled w/JS & they crossed the frozen MS River together. I would think that since polygamy by then had become public knowledge, that Emma knew good & well what hubby was doing. Now, does that mean that she agreed? I think not. I think she loved JS dearly, I don't think that she agreed with all that he came up with. I do think that she ignored most of the politics of the religion. For instance, JS didn't have all of his poly wives living under 1 roof like that of Bill (in BL). But also, from what I've read, for instance JS may have spiritual marriage w/a woman, then the woman would go back home to her husband. I get the feeling it was all for heir's sake. Then, if & when the hubby she lives with passes away; then the new hubby or (JS) in our case of example, would financially, spiritually, & emotionally take care of her. Plus, she would have a Priesthood Holder in person here on Earth until she goes, for direction. For example, if my husband was being sealed to other women without my knowledge then I think this would mean he was having affairs. It would not be as though my husband came to me said he had a revelation from God & wanted to live The Principle & I would be first wife. For JS to be a polygamist or practice polyandry (which I could be spelling wrong but it's when you are sealed to a woman who already has a husband) - Emma would have to be an active willing partner in JS polygamous life. Without Emma being an active part then to me it's JS carrying on affairs. I'm not Mormon but used my husband & I for example only. Gotcha,  I'm finding Mormon history very interesting. I'm very thankful to you Duets for doing research & posting it. Most of the things I've read I never knew. I didn't know that there was an ongoing scientific investigating towards JS attempting to find if he did father the children that he was alleged to. I find it interesting that so far none of the DNA tests have shown JS fathered these children - so I'm wondering if Emma was telling the truth when she stated her husband didn't practice polygamy. In all honesty, I've read some; but very little on this topic. I know that there are several dvds out there on both sides of the argument. I've seen several of them, uh & own a few of them, LOL. But I really haven't come up with any conclusion, just yet. The jury's still out on this one, imo. ** I read in 1 book, where at 1 time in JS's life that he actually told BY, that it was all a lie. He made the whole thing up, BOM & poly et al. I think BY was so macho upon himself, there were so many followers at this point that even if JS made it all up; BY wouldn't or couldn't have exposed this & then be known as an apostate for the religion he had also fought so hard for. He would have never wanted to be caught on any carpet for blasphemy. So if that tale is true, it just got swept under the carpet. You've gotta remember or know that JS began M'ism at a time in history when everyone was down on their luck. Times were hard, no work, no money, large families to feed, little or no education etc. The world was looking for a light at the end of the tunnel. JS was it. He offered a better life for those who wanted it & found it as a means to an end. Other religions as we are all familiar with had preacher's on every corner as well preaching the Gospel; however, JS offered more, such as: when 1 dies u go to Celestial Kingdom, u become God, u have your very own planet etc. Lot's of promises that sounded very different in comparison to what the good old KJV offered. So he must be a Prophet, he see's things that no one else has ever spoken of. I'm not influenced either way - for instance I'm not a JS supporter that will maintain he didn't practice polygamy because of my religious beliefs. I also like the way Big Love is showing how Bill's life can be rewritten any way historians choose. He fathered one child with Ana but historians could write he fathered many children with other women. And yes I realize Bill is fictional I do think the Emma dream Bill had was to show how there is still a fight to find the truth about JS - how dangerous it was for JS to attempt to change things - these things are similar to what The Henricksons are facing. I do think I will be getting books about Emma to read in the near future. I hope even after the seasons end you and I will be able to continue to discuss these things with each other.
That would be great. I've worn poor hubby out on the subject, lol
Again, thank you for taking the time to post the information you have researched. It's been really enjoyable for me. I hope this makes sense. Tonight I made homemade pot pies & I over estimated how quickly this could be done. It's already after 8pm and I still have several more hours of work to do. I'm doing so many things right now but wanted to get on the board to see if you had posted any more of your research. I'm writing quickly & hope this post makes sense.
Next time I make pot pies I will start them around 2pm. I think I could have finished quicker but I made my own pie crust with the help of my little one - which when planned sounded like such a fun activity to do together. I love to cook as a family but it's bedtime for this household!
Duets, you are doing a great job with your research. Are you a researcher by profession? I'll be looking forward to reading your take on JS & if he did practice polygamy & if Emma new about it & was indeed first wife -- and I'll be looking forward to reading all of your opinions. [/i] Thanks so much Albertaleon, that's most kind. You may need a magnifying glass to read the above, let me know if it's too small to read. |
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Post by duets on Feb 10, 2011 3:55:51 GMT -5
" In 1876, Sections 101 from the 1835 Edition (and subsequent printings) was removed. Section 101 was a Statement on Marriage as adopted by a conference of the church,[9][10] and contained the following text:
Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again.[11]It was superseded by section 132 of the modern LDS edition, which contains a revelation received by Joseph Smith on eternal marriage and teaches the doctrine of plural marriage.
According to historical records, Mormon founder Joseph Smith first taught plural marriage as early as 1831. However, he did not start practicing it until around 1835."
Depending upon the source found, one will find various dates that intersect w/each other, which makes it confusing to follow, for example if D&C says one man/one women; then JS didn't adhere to his own D&C writings. On the other side of the coin, dates seemed to have changed each time JS received instruction from an angel.
Joseph Smith also testified an angel with a sword came to him many times and commanded him to practice polygamy or else he would lose his life.
I couldn't find any article that said the angel revisited & told him to stop the practice of polygamy. So why change the D&C?
Regarding Emma & Joseph Smith, most of todays LDS'ers I've spoken w/say that they are of the opinion that they & only they had a lovely marriage & happily together.
But then there are LDS historians which state otherwise! Dito on JS's children. So, will we ever be able to get to the bottom of it all, I don't think so.
Re: DNA, I've found 2 opinions. Yes there were children fathered by JS, & then NONE per JS. It all depends upon where one searches for this info & what their main goal is, imho
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Post by Dee on Feb 10, 2011 10:46:26 GMT -5
Hi ladies, I discovered this board just a few weeks ago and have enjoyed reading all your posts. Now I'm coming out of lurkdom. I've read all your posts about Mormon history, and visited many online sites re: JS and Emma, as well as Brigham Young, etc. From what I can gather, FLDS and LDS were and are sometimes very secretive about their doctrine and history. I'm particularly interested because my grandfather was a Mormon, but not a polygamist (as far as I know). Apparently, there was a time when JS accused Emma of poisoning him, and there were many upsets between the two of them regarding polygamy. It's possible Emma allowed herself to be duped about the multiple "marriages" because she denied it to her death...perhaps even to herself. But there were surely a lot of "adopted" daughters living in their house at times. Just rambling here, but wanted to let you know that I'm thoroughly enjoying your discussion and research into LDS and FLDS. Then of course, there are the RLDS and the Community of Christ offshoots from the original JS formation of the LDS church. It can be all very confusing at times. But still very interesting. Please continue your research as I continue mine. Maybe we can learn from one another. |
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Post by marigoldmama on Feb 10, 2011 11:18:55 GMT -5
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Post by marigoldmama on Feb 10, 2011 11:27:39 GMT -5
I'm a bit lost I thought that LDS acknowledged that Joseph Smith was a polygamist and that God commanded it to end at a certain period of time. Isn't that what happened? They practiced polygamy and then when they wanted statehood, they "decided/got a revelation" to discontinue polygamy. I'm OK with that. A lot of religions have had some "convenient" ideas and did what they needed to do to survive. It's not great but it's nothing new in the world. Every religion has a few skeletons in their closet because we are all human. I'm willing to cut them some slack on that. Then I read that Emma said there never was any polygamy? So who were all these women living in their home? I didn't realize that there are LDS who deny that he was a polygamist.  Isn't it obvious he was? They claim he was "taking care of orphans". But some of these women were married and didn't need someone to take care of them. Like Alberta posted, anyone can write anything about anyone and it can be completely false. The Mormons were very hated so I can understand that. But didn't Joseph have a testimony for polygamy? Isn't this a fact? I really did not know that the LDS deny this. I think denying it is far worse than just saying the history like it is: the good, the bad and the ugly. |
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Post by marigoldmama on Feb 10, 2011 11:35:13 GMT -5
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Post by duets on Feb 10, 2011 13:18:50 GMT -5
I'm a bit lost I thought that LDS acknowledged that Joseph Smith was a polygamist and that God commanded it to end at a certain period of time. Isn't that what happened? They practiced polygamy and then when they wanted statehood, they "decided/got a revelation" to discontinue polygamy. I'm OK with that. A lot of religions have had some "convenient" ideas and did what they needed to do to survive. It's not great but it's nothing new in the world. Every religion has a few skeletons in their closet because we are all human. I'm willing to cut them some slack on that. Then I read that Emma said there never was any polygamy? So who were all these women living in their home? I didn't realize that there are LDS who deny that he was a polygamist. Isn't it obvious he was? They claim he was "taking care of orphans". But some of these women were married and didn't need someone to take care of them. Like Alberta posted, anyone can write anything about anyone and it can be completely false. The Mormons were very hated so I can understand that. But didn't Joseph have a testimony for polygamy? Isn't this a fact? I really did not know that the LDS deny this. I think denying it is far worse than just saying the history like it is: the good, the bad and the ugly. From what I gather, FLDS view JS as the originator of BOM, prophet, seer, & revelator. You are right in that they did practice poly until the state acquired statehood, Mannifesto, issued by Wilford Woodruff which officially suspended the practice of polygamy. Since it's hard to stop some things & hubby's practicing poly couldn't just throw their plural wives away, the practice continued. After 1904, they outsmarted the government & had plural wives live in separate homes. From what I gather, one has to ask, was polygamy ceased due to a commandment or revelation from God; or was it a matter of convenience to acquire statehood? That's kinda like the question, 'which came first~ the chicken or the egg'. Relations further improved after 1904, when church president Joseph F. Smith again disavowed polygamy before the United States Congress and issued a "Second Manifesto" calling for all plural marriages in the church to cease, as they were already against church doctrine since Woodruff issued the Manifesto. Eventually, the church adopted a policy of excommunicating its members found practicing polygamy and today seeks to actively distance itself from “fundamentalist” groups still practicing polygamy.[46]" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_SaintsPolygamy isn't something that the M's really spend alot of time on in today's society. Alot of newbies may not even know about it at all, unless they ask. They are more about keeping the flock abreast of today's expectations in order to maintain one's membership. It has been written that Emma denied (even to her death bed & son) that JS never practiced polygamy. However, there's also documentation that she willingly witnessed a spiritual wedding of 2 sisters who lived in their home [ I should add that they shortly moved out & away due to Emma]. There is even a documented love letter to one of the new bride/sister that I found, which warned them to meet him (one night) only when Emma was out of the house, how funny is this?? I believe Emma couldn't totally accept the poly vision that hubby came up with. At times she did; but at other's, didn't. But didn't Joseph have a testimony for polygamy? Isn't this a fact?Yes, JS had a vision which initially only shared w/close friends, & NOT Emma. Then later the public announcement came. This happened in what is called the Pioneer Era. In regards to denying poly, some churches have pics of JS & Emma. They relate how happily they lived together. They haven't said anything about having pics of JS with all of his wives for the members to see!! [believe me, I've spoken to many & have ask] I think it's just one of those things that they have chosen not to highlight. It's assumed or pondered; but isn't advertised. |
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Post by Dee on Feb 10, 2011 15:05:24 GMT -5
This is true, but I've also read that Emma did admit it in some private conversations, when she was angry with her husband. Of course, that info is only as good as my source, and I can't testify to its authenticity. Anyone can say anything on the internet.
But you can't read only LDS literature, either, since they do tend to minimize the more salacious parts of their history. I suspect none of us will ever know the whole truth, since the ones who really knew are all gone now. What we have left is second and third hand stories, which may or may not be true.
My personal sense is that JS firmly believed in polygamy, either for his own pleasure, or he honestly believed he had been in personal contact with heavenly father. I also think that, if one follows the original LDS doctrine, polygamy is indeed doctrinally sound. That the LDS discontinued polygamy because of the state's actions actually brings into question the reasons for the church's stance. JMHO
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Post by duets on Feb 10, 2011 15:23:42 GMT -5
Dee, thanks for joining in! I agree w/you. It's based upon who's opinion your reading from. There are some ggg-grandchildren around who have handed down hear-say knowledge of 'the way it was'. I find this stuff most interesting. An example I will mention here: Sandra Tanner. She is supposedly a gg grand-daughter of BY. She & her late husband did/do run a "Christian" bookstore right down the block from the SLC Temple. I'm sure that's not so smiled upon by the Mormon community. She invites tourist etc into her shop to discuss & answer any questions, if M'ism is biblically sound &/or is a religion based upon Christianity, or did the LDS's just add Jesus Christ to Latter Day Saint's in order to be more appealing to society at large? www.utlm.org/navaboutus.htm |
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I do think the Emma dream Bill had was to show how there is still a fight to find the truth about JS - how dangerous it was for JS to attempt to change things - these things are similar to what The Henricksons are facing. 
Isn't it obvious he was? They claim he was "taking care of orphans". But some of these women were married and didn't need someone to take care of them.