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Post by katilee on Feb 16, 2010 9:43:04 GMT -5
Yes, BigLoveRocks - that was the other part of Nikki's rant, that Margene makes it look like she does it all on her own, and Nikki is like, "What in the world? Arent' I the one helping with her house and kids? Where is my credit?"
But seriously, if I were going to bet on one of the wives to rule the world, it would be Nikki. I've never seen another "housewife" that can build a roof, sew all the clothes, manage the kids, and have dinner on the table by 6 every night. They never give her credit for the fact that she fixes and/or knows how to do EVERYTHING around the house. That is a serious talent!!!
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Post by jblovessharks on Feb 16, 2010 9:56:13 GMT -5
i forgot entirely that the fight started because of the seminars margie was giving! man, i take back my earlier comment because yeah, that is totally out of line for Margie. I mean, true, her kids are the youngest and need the most attention and therefor would need most watching by others if she had things to do...
Nicki should get into flipping houses... in this market she'd do amazingly well for herself and she could buy through Home Plus to help the family out. She could hire on crew from JC or maybe even the lost boys/girls who i'm sure would be more than willing.
seriously, instead of building casino's and running for senate that is what bill should be doing. Legally even if he is in the senate he's not going to be able to do anything for the lost boys within a time frame that matters to the show/us. But "BUILD WITH BILL" should be about putting these kids to work, feeding them, putting roofs over their heads, giving them job skills and confidence etc
I should move to Utah o.x My dad and I have actually "flipped" one house and are looking at doing more so I totally can see Nicki doing this and teaching others. I tell you there's nothing more satisfying than destroying and then rebuilding houses especially when you have emotional issues and stress!! LOL Give me a sledgehammer and an old kitchen over medication any day!
/end tangent
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missym
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by missym on Feb 16, 2010 13:16:25 GMT -5
I don't think Nikki had a right to be offended. Margene was not at liberty to fully acknowledge that there are "women behind the woman" because they are technically in hiding as polygamists. She did what she could do by acknowledging Barb and Nikki in her own way. And, more importantly, her speeches are not formal addresses but rather a way to improve herself.
I think Nikki is coming to grips with the fact that she was cheated out of being a fully functioning person in the larger world by her own mother and father and took it out on Margene because Margie is close to her, convenient and her own personal whipping board.
All three of them -- Barb, Margie and Nikki -- are growing in ways that I don't think Bill is hip to just yet because he is wrapped up in his own pursuits -- albeit supposedly for the good of all of them.
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Post by BigLoveRocks! on Feb 16, 2010 15:10:43 GMT -5
I think Nikki was pissed that Margie volunteered to be a public speaker/victim all on her own and then lied about it to everyone claiming to have root canals.
If someone has to hide what they are doing, that usually means they know they are doing something that is wrong.
Margene didn't need to go there to promote her business...She is already doing just fine. It was something she chose to do on the side, living a lie both to the women she preaches to and lying to her family about it.
That I believe is the core of the issue. Nikki now sees Margene plays both sides and has no issues about lying to make herself feel better.
Giving Margene credit... I do understand why she is doing what she is doing. She needs to be independant from the whole polygamy thing because she isn't feeling it. But she needs to do it the right way... She needs to leave. She shouldn't be "walking on the backs" of her sister wives as a way of dealing with her not feeling it anymore.
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missym
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by missym on Feb 16, 2010 15:59:52 GMT -5
Honestly, Nikki should be the last person to complain about anyone lying. We could never get a sure count of all Nikki's lies. I hate the whole a big lie is worse than a little lie thing, but Margene using root canals as a excuse to participate in Toastmasters to improve her public speaking seems pretty insignificant in comparison to Nikki's lies and deceits. One of Nikki's lies ended up being directly related to the death of Jodene's sister.
I also don't agree that she isn't feeling polygamy. I think what she isn't feeling is having her burgeoning business torpedoed before it gains enough traction to withstand being outed as a polygamist in a Mormon-centric culture.
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Post by rhinestone_cowgirl on Feb 16, 2010 17:27:07 GMT -5
having had experience of Nikki-esque people; Nikki spying on someone's laptop and then almost trying to blame the other party for it and make them look bad is exactly the type of thing such people would do; in fact I actually have experience of something very similar. It would just kill me if Nikki was my sisterwife. She does seem to be changing; but Nikki will always be Nikki I think...
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Post by jblovessharks on Feb 16, 2010 17:58:56 GMT -5
having had experience of Nikki-esque people; Nikki spying on someone's laptop and then almost trying to blame the other party for it and make them look bad is exactly the type of thing such people would do; in fact I actually have experience of something very similar. It would just kill me if Nikki was my sisterwife. She does seem to be changing; but Nikki will always be Nikki I think... what do you mean by 'nikki-esque people' i feel like you are insinuating a condition or mental disorder here and not an upbringing...
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Post by roughwood on Feb 16, 2010 18:29:25 GMT -5
Has there ever been any real sisterly connection between the three? I haven't seen it. From the start Nickie and Barb were catty behind Margene's back. Yes, when the the whole family's threatened they come together. That's just self-preservation. There's no real bonding that poly women often tout regarding sister-wives. Barb's hanging onto Bill come hell or high water. Nickie doesn't want to go back to the compound. And Margene's in it up to her knees with three kids at a very young age. Non-poly women have close friends to commiserate with and share problems. They can't relate to each other on any level, other than they share Bill. And, it seems to be getting worse. Adding wives should be a careful, thoughtful process. This is bordering on disastrous. I mean, Ana??
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Post by bridget on Feb 16, 2010 18:46:10 GMT -5
I know you're talking about this family only, but I just wanted to say that the sister connection can be very real. My SW and I loved each other very much (and still do), and when she started talking about leaving our husband, one of the things we discussed was that we didn't want to lose each other. Her reasons for moving on had to do with people changing and growing apart, something that happens when people marry young and grow up together. Sometimes growing up means growing in different directions.
She's coming over for dinner tonight...
Now that she is gone, I miss her a lot. I miss her place in our lives. I miss sharing my day to day existence with her. Parenting, grocery shopping, household duties.
It's not all about jealousy and power, or hanging on because people see no other choice. That bond can be real, and for anyone who is anti poly I just want to point it out. Sorry, just had a nerve hit.
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Post by rhinestone_cowgirl on Feb 16, 2010 19:35:45 GMT -5
having had experience of Nikki-esque people; Nikki spying on someone's laptop and then almost trying to blame the other party for it and make them look bad is exactly the type of thing such people would do; in fact I actually have experience of something very similar. It would just kill me if Nikki was my sisterwife. She does seem to be changing; but Nikki will always be Nikki I think... what do you mean by 'nikki-esque people' i feel like you are insinuating a condition or mental disorder here and not an upbringing... Yes, I believe Nikki has a serious personality disorder most likely caused by her upbringing, but I don't believe it will ever be completely fixable no matter how much she is physically distanced from her upbringing. It was much discussed over on the HBO boards last season and those who have also had experience of people with these disorders in their families or close to them agreed. I can't really say so much about my experiences because this person is still around and I know they still google me to see what I may have written about them. Having had personal experience of people with borderline personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder, last season I would have definitely said it was the latter; this season I'm not so sure as she does seem to have some sense of awareness that she is a damaged person and most of the time from what I have seen of true narcissists they are much further along the path of being damaged and broken to look in on themselves like that.
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Post by roughwood on Feb 17, 2010 1:03:03 GMT -5
<< you're talking about this family only>> Yes, I am.
<<It's not all about jealousy and power, or hanging on because people see no other choice. That bond can be real, and for anyone who is anti poly I just want to point it out. Sorry, just had a nerve hit. >>
I believe this can be so. I'd like to see an example of it in the show. It would be an interesting contrast to the sister-wives we see every week. This show seems to be saying it's only a recipe for misery. The closest relationship between sister-wives I've seen was Kathy's caring for Wanda.
I'm sorry if my comments came off as anti-poly to you or anyone else here. It wasn't my intent at all.
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Post by jblovessharks on Feb 17, 2010 1:40:00 GMT -5
what do you mean by 'nikki-esque people' i feel like you are insinuating a condition or mental disorder here and not an upbringing... Yes, I believe Nikki has a serious personality disorder most likely caused by her upbringing, but I don't believe it will ever be completely fixable no matter how much she is physically distanced from her upbringing. It was much discussed over on the HBO boards last season and those who have also had experience of people with these disorders in their families or close to them agreed. I can't really say so much about my experiences because this person is still around and I know they still google me to see what I may have written about them. Having had personal experience of people with borderline personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder, last season I would have definitely said it was the latter; this season I'm not so sure as she does seem to have some sense of awareness that she is a damaged person and most of the time from what I have seen of true narcissists they are much further along the path of being damaged and broken to look in on themselves like that. /im going to go a little "off topic" and into some personal stuff but honest its got to do with nicki too. and i feel (and hope im right) that these boards are safe and i can have a discussion like this and not be strung up so im mixed as to whether i should be glad or upset i missed out on those discussions im curious if youre pointing it out in nicki and using youre personal experience with an individual of similar traits in an attempt to vilify nicki and victimize those around her? not that it is done maliciously on her part or was in any way her fault for procuring such an illness (her upbringing/predispositions were not her fault) i've been diagnosed BPD for going on five years now and had a 'damaging upbringing' much like nicki but without the poly aspect as a main component. so i'm a little unsure if i should feel a little ruffled by you're comments because it's been my experience (i'm also a psych graduate) that the medical community as well as mental health community as a whole still view individuals with BPD as 'incurable' and 'a burden' on those around them in multiple ways or if you're simply pointing out these traits in nicki and how they are most plausibly due to having this illness, and that because of this it should be viewed and noted that she isn't simply a villain or malicious no good doer despite her actions often coming across as. and to make maybe my own stance a little clearer - because i know this is one of the huge issues surrounding this illness - that things she may have done that were malicious/manipulative etc were not done with the intention of such, but were done out of her needs and in the only way she'd learned/been conditioned to realize works. and that even though this may be true, it does NOT excuse her behaviour or mean she should be free from consequences of such i don't know - i guess i just feel like i needed to step in a little for nicki on the side that she's on because i understand her and where she's coming from more than i would ever would like to be able to and have struggled the past few years trying to break from the 'villain' stereotype in interpersonal interactions in my life. i hate that it seems like one is either on the BP side or the nonBP side (the literature is more often than not written for one or the other) so i am SO off topic here and way too personal but i just really had to ask and find out. i am sorry that you had a relationship of some means with an indvidiaul who shared thsi diagnosis but i do hope that you maybe have some understanding that it is not everybody and that in nicki's case - she is progressing. she knows she's damaged and has said thus this very past episode like you said. that is key. i am rooting for her in more ways than one /end personal TMI and really, i am NOT trying to start an arguement at all! ok? please don't read this as such - guys! It just struck me this entire topic/idea and I would have felt like a betrayer if I didn't put in my own personal experience and two cents.
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Post by JJ77 on Feb 17, 2010 2:39:41 GMT -5
It seems to me that up untill recently margene didnt do a lot of thinking for herself. She was motivated by pleasing others almost all of the time - and now that she is begining to grow and find her own voice she is simply not willing to stifle it. I dont think margene is pulling away from her marriage / poly. I think she is trying to assert herself as being an equal partner in the marriage - both with Bill and (especially) the other wives. She hasnt exacty been taken seriously by any of them in the past, and now that she's finding some self confidence she's not going to settle for the eye rolls and brush off's she's previously received from them. IOW's Margene is begining to find self worth and self respect & all I think she's asking for is the same in return - that they (her sw's & husband) see her worth and respect her as well.
I also don't feel she's walking on the backs of her sister wives or using them in any way. I actually think Margene's new found assertion and confidence may be a good thing for the other wives in the long run... it's something they all could use a bit more of IMO; equality in the marriage, having their voice heard , etc.
It seemed to me Nicki thought this "meeting" was going to be purely a "let's gang up on marge" meeting. Which would have been something quite comforatble for Nicki. Instead I think she was threatened by margene being so honest and also by her getting barb to open up a little about her fears of "coming out". When Barb turned to her (as in what are your fears Nicki?) instead of sharing her feelings she went on the attack and said very spitefully "That you wont be moving forward with us margene". Then of course she began attacking her for her "speeches" spinning them in the process.
I have nothing but empathy and compassion for Nicki and where she is emotionally now, due to her past. So don't get me wrong on that point. but I don't think her own issues and struggles should be used as a trump card to negate someone else's life experience. I also dont think they should give her license to take out her frustrations and hurt on margene. I get why Nicki is the way she is, and I think she is making real progress in coming to terms with herself ... but at this point in time she's still lashing out at margene to make herself feel better.
Nickie is resentful of the confidence, and self assurance she sees blooming in margene bc it's what Nicki yearns for - a real sense of self . To me her " well my life was harder" rant was Nicki's way of saying - I deserve to be where you are. When nicki is hurt or feels insecure she lashes out. It's just what Nicki does.
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Post by bridget on Feb 17, 2010 9:49:44 GMT -5
<< you're talking about this family only>> Yes, I am. <<It's not all about jealousy and power, or hanging on because people see no other choice. That bond can be real, and for anyone who is anti poly I just want to point it out. Sorry, just had a nerve hit. >> I believe this can be so. I'd like to see an example of it in the show. It would be an interesting contrast to the sister-wives we see every week. This show seems to be saying it's only a recipe for misery. The closest relationship between sister-wives I've seen was Kathy's caring for Wanda. I'm sorry if my comments came off as anti-poly to you or anyone else here. It wasn't my intent at all. You didn't come off as anti poly personally, I just wanted to counter balance the "stuff" that is coming out in the show. Your observations about them aren't wrong, but reading them did make me go, "Oh, ouch, that's not how it has to be!" I hope that makes sense.
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Post by katilee on Feb 17, 2010 14:23:05 GMT -5
I don't get why the whole discussion seems to be Nikki Vs. Marge. My point is that both of them have been railroaded by BARB more than once. I feel for both Nikki and Marge. They both are trying to find their way in life, but they keep getting sneered at by the other family members. Barb seems to be the leader, and then everyone falls behind her. Why dont' Nikki and Marge learn to be nicer to each other and realize that Barb is not giving them room to grow? Especially since Barb did have sort of an idyllic upbringing and Nikki grew up on a compound and Marge with a crazy drunk floozy Mother? And then, even though Barb's family IS the most normal, Nikki and Margene STILL stick up for Barb ALL THE TIME when her family comes over!!!
I just feel like Barb is in no way a good friend to those two, and maybe the writers make it like that to show that Barb was never really on board with the whole concept to begin with. Well, if that is the case, then why agree to it ever? Why complain now after your husband has 5 other kids to think about and countless women that he has slept with?
And then, of all of them, you want to be friends with ANNA? Maybe, this is my opinion, Barb only liked Anna b/c she was new, but soon, she would've found a reason to hate ANNA just like she has the other two!
Do you guys remember in the first season when Nikki and Marge used to call Barb "Bosslady," and seemed to bond w/out her? What ever happend to those days?
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